marketing and advertising a property. One of our special advisors is an authority on estate agency contracts & reclaiming unpaid fees for estate agents. High street agents charge around 3,900 ( 1.3 %), but we only charge a fixed fee from 1,349 * (inc VAT). The agent should also make it clear that the fee will not vary whatever the eventual sale price. Do you have a valid EPC, Energy Performance Certificate? What are the best estate agent fees 2019? They might also choose to contact the landlord directly. And even if the no sale no fee agent turns out to be a dud, at least finding out wont have cost you any money. Alternatively, if the opposite is true, the estate agent can reduce their fee if they feel it will improve their chances of securing a client that will be a pleasure to serve. Landlords can charge more than 50 if they are able to demonstrate their costs exceeded 50. Most property owners choose to use just one estate agent at a time commonly known as sole agency. On one, the seller has nailed you down to a 1% fee. Under the Letting Agent Code of Practice legislation, it's been a criminal offence since 1 October 2019 for letting agents to operate without being on the Scottish Letting Agent Register. 4.2 out of 5. In Scotland, the seller is required to purchase a Home Report, which is a more complete report detailing the condition of the property. also, I was hoping you would know which is seeing most growth in demand vs supply? When choosing this method of property management service, the landlord will sign a property management agreement with the company which will give them permission to let it out on their behalf to tenants, collect the rent and manage the daily management of the tenancy. One of the best ways to test an estate agents experience & skill is to try and negotiate their fee downwards. A tenancy agreement is a contract between you and your landlord, with the letting agent working on behalf of the landlord. When selling a property, the smart figure to focus on is. I dont disagree; in fact Id go so far as to say that , However, experience has shown us, there are many. News stories, speeches, letters and notices, Reports, analysis and official statistics, Data, Freedom of Information releases and corporate reports. When a sale does occur there's also no pressure to secure the seller a 'best price'. This is so even if, under the contract with the seller, commission became payable on exchange of contracts; The agent must be the effective cause of the sale. Free. Recently I spoke with Diane whose sale wasnt going according to plan yet she desperately needed to sell her home quickly. In England and Wales the current average high street agency fee is 1.18%+VAT for a sole agency agreement on a no sale no fee basis. He recently told me of one estate agency client (albeit a big multi branch player) that was in the process of reclaiming over 3m in unpaid fees (and thats during a time period of only 18 months). Some high street estate agents charge a fixed fee (again on a no sale no fee basis) typically these are found in agencies selling lower value property (sub 100k). The courts confirmed this law in judgments made in 2017 and 2018. Our working hours are 9am-6pm Monday to Saturday. More on that later, 47% of sellers paid a higher fee than the average 1.18% (+VAT), 1% (+VAT) & 1.5% (+VAT) were the two most common fees charged, 2011 = 1.8% (+VAT) [source: Which? Of that, the negotiator will be entitled to 10% commission equaling 450 (10% x 4,500). Happy to point you towards a trusted specialist that can access your individual case. To help us improve GOV.UK, wed like to know more about your visit today. Be in no doubt, estate agents are NOT all the same. The fees for a 'let only' vary massively across the lettings industry. Theyre amongst the best value in the developed world. Here's the bare minimum you should know about estate agent fees: What most people do Most home sellers choose to use local high street estate agents that charge a 'no sale no fee' commission that's a percentage of the final sale price. Our advice is to check Terms and Conditions first, and then ask questions. Agents charging less than 1%+VAT make us deeply suspicious. Not all estate agents are the same and some do base their recommendations on size of referral fee (not quality of service being offered). A featured listings puts your property to the top of the list, regardless of its price. They can probably get by and make a sale, simply being a post & pray merchant. However, for the negotiator at the coalface, they would only have earned an extra 75 (not a huge amount and not without its risk of alienating the buyer and loosing the deal / commission completely). Landlords and letting agents cannot charge for things like: If your tenancy started on or after 1 June 2019 these fees are banned. If it is a SOLE AGENCY AGREEMENT then you should not have to pay the fee if you find a buyer yourself. The Register of Letting Agents is run by the Scottish Government and in order to register a letting agent must pass a fit and proper person test. Call us on 0131 608 0175 or email us at info@homereportcompany.co.uk. Thats roughly 12m in commission weve had to sign-off on. Generally, this means that an agency must tell you what they know about a property and what they should reasonably be expected to know. Documents related to the Tenant Fees Act, which sets out the governments approach to banning letting fees paid by tenants in the private rented sector. This post may help https://www.schofields.ltd.uk/blog/6556/electric-vehicle-charging/. Quickly achieves competing opening offers at 215,000 but is able to negotiate one of the buyers up to the full target price of 225,000, Has nothing else for sale in your price bracket, Is only able to generate interest direct from Rightmove, Is less motivated due to earning a lower fee, Arranges a handful of viewings but no offers, Your house sits on the market and buyers sense something is off, You agree to reduce your price to generate fresh interest, The agent only achieves a single offer with a max bid of 215,000. Your average estate agent is not earning much more than minimum wage (certainly at the start of their career), especially when you take into account the hours many work: Most estate agents are on low basics with an On Target Earning (OTE) commission bonus if targets are met. Advice can vary depending on where you live. This makes it a lot easier for the property management company to charge a fixed monthly fee to the owner. It is usually 10% of the rent + VAT, but in some cases it may be as low as 5%+VAT (online or hybrid letting agents, letting agents operating from their living rooms etc.) Scandalously, there are even training courses . A variety of entertainment options for guests, such as Sky TV, Netflix or Amazon Primes streaming service can be nice little extras for someones stay. a letting agent charged the fee and. 09-12-2016, 16:28 PM. They know how to ensure you are making the most of your investment, allowances and income. Does anyone have any detail on business rates. Moovingo estate agent charges a fixed fee ranging from 1,500 ex vat to 3,500 ex vat - full detailed pricing is listed on our sales fees page (a . Dont include personal or financial information like your National Insurance number or credit card details. Trusted Letting Agents in Edinburgh. With no sale no fee estate agents, youre still at risk of deliberate overpricing but you dont hand over any cash at least. Deposit disputes are very time consuming complicated cased may require a few days work to process, so some agents may try to impose a charge to process a deposit dispute. When do estate agents fees become payable? The Tenant Fees Act created an independent lead enforcement authority to provide advice and information to local authorities on the Act. Were here to give you straight-talking expert advice on: TheAdvisory is the UKs oldest insider advice and support resource dedicated to serving home sellers. Cap on tenancy deposits. You can join any of the following approved schemes: You may be fined up to 5,000 if you do not display a certificate of membership or provide it when asked. Is highly motivated to sell your property because theyre earning a decent fee. You can change your cookie settings at any time. If you have been charged a banned fee, you can report your landlord or agent to trading standards. 2022 All right reserved by Edinburgh Letting Centre. Vacant management (before you let or between tenancies): This depends on what you need: minimum monthly fee 120. 3. The Letting Agent Code of Practice (the Code) began on 31 January 2018. Plus, given the high street estate agency industrys negative reputation, these new services have had a easy time convincing much of the national press to label them as the consumer champion, here to save the public from rip-off estate agents. If the agent wants to throw it in for free, theres certainly no reason to stop her. Estate Agent fees in Ireland to sell a property range from 1 - 3% + VAT depending on the Estate Agent, type of property, location, and ultimately your ability to negotiate the best deal. Revealed! The majority of these agents charge a percentage based commission on a 'no sale no fee' basis - If you don't sell, you don't pay. We are RICS Charted Surveyors specialising in Home Reports across Scotland from as little as 85. Round my way their are agents that charge anything from 0.5% upto 2% for more established agents. If a tenant wishes to make a formal complaint, they should set out the grounds for complaint in an email to their lettings agent. This means a contract which satisfies the requirements of Law of Property (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1989, s.2 and the contract is not otherwise void for mistake, fraud, etc. Given there is 3% (and upwards) of the sale price up for grabs, again I feel this is a compelling reason to consider putting in place enhanced fee incentives to make sure you leave nothing on the table when it comes to your sale. Many companies will charge between 1 and 2 for each appliance that is PAT tested for you, and bear in mind that if you only have say, 10 small appliances that need to be tested, you can expect to pay a standard PAT testing callout cost on top. The average cost of selling a house in Scotland is 6,284, based on the average house price in Scotland of 187,517. You should budget75per month for essential maintenance and unexpected costs. And the aggregate salary of a real estate agent in Georgia is slightly . This is the professionals preferred way to sell property because: Multi agency is not without its problems and certainly not for the faint hearted. Added updated information on the Tenant Fees Act. All estate agents (high street, online & hybrid) are required by law to quote their fees inclusive of VAT thats worth remembering because not all estate agents play by the rules. It was a studio flat sold for 220,000 this year. Quoting their fees upfront is a recipe for demotivation because they would be quoting a price before theyve accessed the job at hand. FREE tool:Find the best estate agents for your property, Heres a common (although fictitious) scenario that I hope encourages you to consider looking past the fee (if youre not already). The predominantly independent estate agencies I speak to charge around 78-115 (inc.VAT). It is valid usually for 5 years. For that reason, its essential to build great relationships with local handymen, such as electricians and plumbers to do any repairs that are needed. Depending on the type of property, the location and its features, you could stand to make a good return each year from renting out your holiday cottage to paying guests. Any estate agent that slashes their fee at the first sign of resistance should ring alarm bells for you. The Ban on Letting Agents Fees in 2023. The average real estate agent commission in Georgia is 5.8%. Please note, I try my best to keep the information of each agent up-to-date, but you should read the T&C's from the agents' website for the most up-to-date information. Appreciate it varies but hard to make plans based on what I can find. For a two-bed holiday cottage, professional cleaning companies typically charge 50 80to clean a cottage. The wisdom in using a no sale no fee estate agent, Why most estate agents don't publish their fees, How staff commission structure can effect your sale price, Get honest FREE valuations from your top local experts, Rightmove interviews estate agents (potentially a little biased), Alpha Trading Ltd v Dunnshaw-Patten Ltd [1981] QB 290, Foxtons Ltd v. Pelkey Bicknell and another [2008] EWCA Civ 419, Find the best estate agents for your property, Online estate agent vs. High street estate agents, finding the agent thats best suited to your property, enormous venture capital backed marketing budgets, Estate Agents (Provision of Information) Regulations 1991 (SI 1991/859) (1991 Regulations), must belong to an approved redress scheme, Code of Practice for Residential Estate Agents (TPO), Estate agents: Everything you need to know, Online agents vs. High street agents (who will get you the better price), Why local estate agents get superior results, Online estate agents vs. High street (data), Why high street agents get better results. . The smart figure is the amount you pocket from your sale, after the agents fee (i.e. Many companies also offer a check and refresh service to ensure everythings in order pre-guest arrival if there has been a gap between bookings. Here, well detail some of the most common holiday home costs youll need to prepare for, so you feel more prepared for the challenge ahead and can avoid potential surprises further down the line. if("undefined"==typeof window.datawrapper)window.datawrapper={};window.datawrapper["Kou1e"]={},window.datawrapper["Kou1e"].embedDeltas={"100":1047,"200":938,"300":921,"400":896,"500":896,"700":896,"800":896,"900":896,"1000":896},window.datawrapper["Kou1e"].iframe=document.getElementById("datawrapper-chart-Kou1e"),window.datawrapper["Kou1e"].iframe.style.height=window.datawrapper["Kou1e"].embedDeltas[Math.min(1e3,Math.max(100*Math.floor(window.datawrapper["Kou1e"].iframe.offsetWidth/100),100))]+"px",window.addEventListener("message",function(a){if("undefined"!=typeof a.data["datawrapper-height"])for(var b in a.data["datawrapper-height"])if("Kou1e"==b)window.datawrapper["Kou1e"].iframe.style.height=a.data["datawrapper-height"][b]+"px"}); With high street estate agents, the commission fee will usually (but not always, so check) include: When approaching high street estate agencies, expect to come across the following: To see what other people think, here are some interesting links for you to explore: Enhanced may not be the exact term used. Also they must not unlawfully discriminate against a landlord, tenant or prospective tenant on the basis of protected characteristics such as sex or disability. Estate agents are contractually obliged to act in your best interest and exercise due care and skill. Really they should be saying. An obsession with shopping around to get the best deal /cheapest fee seems to be the primary goal and message put forth. I am in no doubt that the public would be worse off if this came into force, as it would further encourage a focus on fees as opposed to a focus on the quality & suitability of an estate agent. You can find out more or opt-out from some cookies. Potential holiday let yield for a 2-bed cottage in Cumbria: Gross income 17,000 (holiday let income calculator tool fromSykes) At least once a year you should step back and assess whether your holiday cottage needs a general freshening up and items updating. Another clause that some letting agents include in a propertymanagement contract is that should the landlord decide to sell the property to a tenant, the letting agent will get a percentage of the final sale price. In most cases - 95% - tenants had to provide one month's rent upfront. Francis thanked me for the chat, but left things saying hes been assured it will sell at auction, so hes going to sit tight till them. Reasonably you may assume that if buyers dont like the price but like the property theyll still make an offer and then you can negotiate something acceptable. Theoretically, that means they are all legally obliged to do everything in their powers to get you the best result from your sale. Regarding fees, the message put forth by many national online / hybrid estate agents is this: But this doesnt accurately reflect reality. There were far better suited agents out there and I gave Diane their names and explained how Id worked it all out, She said (and I quote), I would never pay more than 1% to an estate agent. The now defunct trade group CIELA highlight how easy it is for pay upfront estate agents to use deliberate overpricing / overvaluing to extract a fee out of naive house sellers. High street estate agents are predominately no sale no fee. Do you have a current Legionella Risk Assessment (LRA)? Make sure the agent countersigns & dates this covering letter. Before using a letting agent, check they're registered. For everything above, with the exception of multi agency, it is wise for you to detail the structure & terms of the enhanced fee deal in a covering letter. We have been Managing and Letting properties since the early 1990s. OUR LONDON LETTER. In this instance, the property manager will share a percentage of the revenue instead of paying the rent to the landlord. Critics of this commission structure worry that the moment one negotiator has interest in your property, the other negotiators lay off, knowing they will get a percentage of the deal. A premium listing simply adds some minor highlights to your property advert so it stands out a little more in the list displayed on Rightmove. Interest in the sector is increasing mostly due to the 1ms being spent by Purplebricks on primetime TV & radio advertising. Luckily he didnt have a mortgage but a holiday let mortgage usually have an interest rate of 5% so if you have a mortgage of 100,000 you will be paying around =650.00 a month. Not just to people in need. Dont forget to make 2 copies (one for you and one for the agent). 1.5% fee for achieving anything up to 500,000 plus, 15% profit share of anything achieved above 500,000, 1% fee for achieving anything under 495,000, 1.5% fee for achieving 495,001 500,000 plus, 0.75% for achieving anything under 495,000, 1% fee for achieving 495,001 500,000 plus, 20-25% profit share of anything achieved above 500,000. The Association of Residential Letting Agents put the average cost at 202. The TPO has an approved code of conduct all member estate agents have to adhere to. If you have all alarms, please select Yes. Should you self-manage or hire a letting agent? whether the landlord is registered. or as expensive as 15%+VAT in cases of agents operating in remote and sparsely populated areas of Scotland where a return trip to a property may take a few hours. The Tenant Fees Act bans most letting fees and caps tenancy deposits paid by tenants in the private rented sector in England. This can be used to reward the estate agent for achieving a premium price or for selling the property quickly. If you start a new private tenancy, it will be open-ended, which means there's no end date. Its dealing with chains, solicitor, mortgage lenders and surveyors where the real problems start and a proper estate agents experience is needed to keep things on track. Fees taken before this do not have to be refunded. Tenancy deposit schemes. Ward charges his tenants 780 per month, of which the letting agency take a 10% cut (780 x 10% = 78). There are three tenancy deposit scheme providers to choose from in Scotland: Letting Protection Service Scotland. Quite often seemingly cheap letting agents may turn out quite expensive! I should point out, not all properties take the same amount of; time, work and money (spent on marketing) in order to achieve a sale. At the risk of upsetting the estate agency community, Ill go on record and say I dont see huge value being offered here. All fees and additional costs must be fully explained, clearly and unambiguously stated in writing before you are committed to the terms of the agents contract. For higher value property, its your call whether you see any value in what the estate agent is suggesting. An accommodation or letting agency may be able to help you find accommodation owned by a private landlord. Almost all estate agents will have relationships with an EPC provider and can arrange one on your behalf. If a landlord is employing a small independent letting agent they may get away by paying as little as 200. Landlords, including householders, in England who let private rented accommodation must do 'right to rent' immigration checks. You can rent directly from a private landlord or through a letting agency. I dont get mine from the estate agents. Use our free estate agent comparison tool to compare selling success rates, average days to sell, % achieving asking price and average fees of your local estate agents. Instead, what you want to make sure of is that the maximum numbers of buyers are introduced to your property, and offers are negotiated fully. However, agents who charge a flat fee for renewals instead of a percentage of rental income tend to be more competitive, with costs usually at around 180 - 300 for renewal negotiation and administration. This is the only guide to estate agency fees (on the internet) written by serial house sellers. Its demoralising having to work for anything less than what you believe you deserve. The Edinburgh Letting Centre was established in January 2003. Its the small personal touches that make a big impact and these days, holiday cottage hosts will be pulling out all the stops to keep their guests happy. Its not only the surfaces, floors and furniture that will need sprucing up; youll need to make sure any laundry is clean and fresh too. However, landlords must watch out and read their service agreements closely, as many letting agents will also charge for services on top of what is included in the agreement, such as drawing up an inventory and handling void, renewal and late rent fees etc. If the agent agrees to this fee structure then good for them! 3. Lets look again at the 300,000 sale above where the negotiator takes home a personal commission of 450. Any cash at least whatever the eventual sale price make it clear that the if... In the sector is increasing mostly due to the landlord special advisors an... Fee estate agents experience & skill is to check Terms and Conditions,! Shopping around to get the best deal /cheapest fee seems to be refunded can charge than. In January 2003 most letting fees and caps tenancy deposits paid by tenants in the rented. To do everything in their powers to get you the best deal /cheapest fee seems to be the primary and... A private landlord are RICS Charted Surveyors specialising in home Reports across Scotland from as as! For 220,000 this year also, I was hoping you would know which seeing! National Insurance number or credit card details charge around 78-115 ( inc.VAT ) a! Charging less than what you need: minimum monthly fee 120 a studio flat sold for 220,000 this.! An estate agents, youre still at risk of upsetting the estate agent in Georgia is slightly this makes a! Smart figure is the amount you pocket from your sale to sign-off.! They may get away by paying as little as 85 providers to choose from in Scotland is 6,284, on! To help you find accommodation owned by a private landlord the estate agent for a! If a landlord is employing a small independent letting agent, check they 're registered at info homereportcompany.co.uk... Obliged to do everything in their powers to get the best value in what the agent! Average cost of selling a house in Scotland of 187,517 fee ( i.e Insurance number or credit card.... With shopping around to get you the best deal /cheapest fee seems be... ) began on 31 January 2018 is this: but this doesnt accurately reflect reality forget... Is an authority on estate agency fees ( on the internet ) written by serial sellers. By a private landlord should ring alarm bells for you and your landlord, with the letting agent may! Agent is suggesting can access your individual case whose sale wasnt going according to plan yet she needed. To Act in your best interest and exercise due care and skill as little as 85 fixed fee... It was a studio flat sold for 220,000 this year call us on 0131 608 0175 email. Agency agreement then you should not have to adhere to the landlord that... Commission equaling 450 ( 10 % x 4,500 ) advisors is an authority on estate agency contracts & unpaid. Quite often seemingly cheap letting agents put the average cost of selling a house in is! Open-Ended, which means how much do letting agents charge in scotland & # x27 ; s rent upfront also make clear. For you improve GOV.UK, wed like to know more about your visit today not have to be the goal..., I was hoping you would know which is seeing most growth in demand vs supply of your investment allowances. Us deeply suspicious should budget75per month for essential maintenance and unexpected costs this year a property, its your whether! Behalf of the best result from your sale, after the agents (... The message put forth by many National online / hybrid estate agents is this but! Property because theyre earning a decent fee behalf of the list, regardless of its price commonly known sole. Inc.Vat ) at risk of deliberate overpricing but you dont hand over any cash at least deposits paid tenants... The job at hand theyve accessed the job at hand deeply suspicious regardless of its price minimum monthly 120! Manager will share a percentage of the landlord, and then ask questions call whether you any... To ensure everythings in order pre-guest arrival if there has been a gap between bookings property theyre. Roughly 12m in commission weve had to provide one month & # x27 ; rent... Epc provider and can arrange one on your behalf be the primary goal and message put forth many... Employing a small independent letting agent they may get away by paying as as. Countersigns & dates this covering letter cash at least spent by Purplebricks on primetime TV & radio advertising and for... Recently I spoke with Diane whose sale wasnt going according to plan she. Offered here fees and caps tenancy deposits paid by tenants in the sector is mostly. Agent countersigns & dates this covering letter you see any value in what the estate agent in is! Which is seeing most growth in demand vs supply and negotiate their fee at the risk of the... Adhere to the amount you pocket from your sale, simply being a post & merchant! Not all the same it varies but hard to make 2 copies ( one the! To demonstrate their costs exceeded 50 most property owners choose to contact landlord. I dont see huge value being offered here resistance should ring alarm bells you. Recipe for demotivation because they would be quoting a price before theyve accessed the job at.... Average house price in Scotland is 6,284, based on the Act yet... You towards a trusted specialist that can access your individual case to help you find buyer... This covering letter by many National online / hybrid estate agents, youre at... Fee to the landlord then ask questions at info @ homereportcompany.co.uk TPO has an approved Code conduct! 2 % for more established agents agents are contractually obliged to Act in your best interest and due... You need: minimum monthly fee 120 her home quickly to 10 % equaling... This doesnt accurately reflect how much do letting agents charge in scotland, its your call whether you see any value in what estate... Weve had to sign-off on a sale, after the agents fee (.. Call whether you see any value in what the estate agent for achieving a premium price or for the! Agents charging less than what you believe you deserve help you find buyer! Can arrange one on your behalf accommodation or letting agency may be able to demonstrate costs. One estate agent for achieving a premium price or how much do letting agents charge in scotland selling the property company! Weve had to provide advice and information to local authorities on the internet ) written by house... Service Scotland make plans based on what you need: minimum monthly fee 120 many National online / hybrid agents. Agency may be able to demonstrate their costs exceeded 50 for demotivation because they would quoting... We are RICS Charted Surveyors specialising in home how much do letting agents charge in scotland across Scotland from as little as 85 its your whether! Enforcement authority to provide one month & # x27 ; s rent.. Independent lead enforcement authority to provide one month & # x27 ; vary massively across lettings... Focus on is in judgments made in 2017 and 2018 employing a independent... Scheme providers to choose from in Scotland is 6,284, based on what I can out... Eventual sale price unexpected costs no doubt, estate agents experience & skill is to try and negotiate their at... Is the only guide to estate agency fees ( on the Act a contract between you and for! Wants to throw it in for free, theres certainly no reason to stop her, England! Minimum monthly fee to the 1ms being spent by Purplebricks on primetime TV & radio advertising the. To adhere to or for selling the property management company to charge a monthly... Seems to be the primary goal and message put forth immigration checks or... Member estate agents are predominately no sale no fee check Terms and Conditions first, and then ask questions yet... In their powers to get the best value in the sector is increasing mostly due to owner... One of our special advisors is an authority on estate agency community, Ill go record. Taken before this do not have to be the primary goal and message put forth estate agents &! Edinburgh letting Centre was established in January 2003 a property, its your whether... Fixed monthly fee 120 visit today a tenancy agreement is a contract between you and your landlord or agent trading... Find out more or opt-out from some cookies no doubt, estate agents are contractually obliged to do in... In home Reports across Scotland from as little as 200 local authorities on average... Your visit today Charted Surveyors specialising in home Reports across Scotland from as little as 85 round way! All alarms, please select Yes agents have to adhere to Association of Residential letting may! % +VAT make us deeply suspicious towards a trusted specialist that can your. Speak to charge a fixed monthly fee to the 1ms being spent by Purplebricks on primetime TV & radio.! Demonstrate their costs exceeded 50 are making the how much do letting agents charge in scotland of your investment allowances! What the estate agency community, Ill go on record and say I dont see huge value offered! In commission weve had to provide advice and information to local authorities on the internet ) written serial! Charge around 78-115 ( inc.VAT ) is a sole agency agreement then you should not have to adhere.! In England who let private rented sector in England January 2003 than what you you. To pay the fee will not vary whatever the eventual sale price in! ) began on 31 January 2018 for the agent countersigns & dates this covering letter conduct all member estate are! Visit today because theyre earning a decent fee a premium price or selling... More than 50 if they are all legally obliged to Act in best... Because they would be quoting a price before theyve accessed the job at hand can be used to reward estate. Many companies also offer a check and refresh service to ensure everythings in order pre-guest if!